----- Original Message -----From: Mike SchroederCc: Robert Powell ; agbsf@grandecom.net ; Alan Couchman ; Arthur Clarke ; BA ; Chris Stevens ; Chuck Burnett ; Dakota Tremayne ; David Lewis ; David Martinez ; Dr. Steve Bain ; Jeremiah Patoka ; Jerry Barker ; JimBob Howard ; John Bryant ; John Otis ; JOSE MARTINEZ ; Mitch Friedman ; Nathan Shaver ; Pat Hastings ; Rick Mata ; Steve Phillips ; Terry BurnettSent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:54 PMSubject: RE: The Princes of This World by Mike Schroeder
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:11:28 -0500
From: benbernier@grandecom.net
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Subject: Re: The Princes of This World by Mike Schroeder
Robert Powell wrote:
BEB: Surely not.
The Princes of This World
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 1Cor 2:6-8
In this passage from his first letter to the church at Corinth, the apostle Paul makes a statement in the last sentence that seems to have simply slipped by the purveyors of mainstream Christian theology.
I say this because those who adhere to what is commonly referred to as the "orthodox" [i] position, contend and teach that Jesus, in his three year earthly ministry, revealed this mystery. They say that he clearly stated his purpose was to die for the sins of all mankind--which his vicarious death would provide the payment for the sin debt owed by mankind--making a way for all to be saved by simply believing (as in Acts 16:31; Rom 3:22; 10:9).
But if this were true, wouldn't this refute what Paul says in this passage?
Had Jesus revealed this truth in his earthly ministry, according to Paul, "the princes of this world" would not have had him crucified,
BEB: This is not what Paul says. He does not say that Jesus did not reveal the mystery, he said that the princes did not know it.
It is possible for God to reveal something and for people to be obstinate and not know it. (Romans 1:18-20)
Orthodox gobbldygoop!
Paul says several time in his epistles that the mystery given to him was not made known before he revealed it. This has been pointed out by me in numerous earlier offerings, and ignored or explained away by yourself, et. al. on this forum. This being the case how, pray tell, could it have been revealed by Jesus in his eartly ministry prior to this? Is Paul deluded or deceived?
And if it is layed out in the four gospels, as you contend, where is it? Paul received nothing in the form of a mystery that the other apostles did not receive. You have again misinterpreted the scriptures to support your main theme that there are two gospels. You start with a premise that is wrong and then force other scriptures to conform to it. The following is all the "mystery" that Paul spoke of and none of them refer to a mystery that only Paul received that none other disciple or apostle received but in fact at one point he says all the saints understood the mystery referring to (including) all the apostles:"Romans 16:25 ¶Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Ephesians 6:19 ¶And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
So where is this "mystery" that Paul received that none other apostle received? You and Robert have said that Romans 16:25 means that Paul alone has a gospel because he used the word "my" to claim this gospel. Come on now! I also claim this gospel and call it mine when speaking to others. Just because it is "my story" or "my good news" does not mean it is not the gospel of others before me. It is clear from the rest of Paul's use of the term "mystery" that he is not saying this "mystery" of the gospel was given to him alone separate from the other 12 or all the other saints that believe and are born again at any time.BEB: No. it only appears to say that if one presupposes that there are two different gospels.
(ie. that the gospel committed to Paul is essentially different to the one committed to the apostles,
a presupposition which denies the plain word of Christ.)
How do you know what I've "presupposed", Ben? In fact, are you not the one presupposing here? What do you think I did, dream up this doctrine and then dig up some Scripture verses to substantiate it? This is what it sounds like you're saying. I don't think you made this up. But I do believe someone made it up to avoid their deficiency of experience. Since they never experienced a rebirth as Christ said was a must to see the kingdom of God, they merely dismiss this requirement as something for the Jews alone and therefore not required of them. The result is that the "rightly dividers" are satisfied with a mere statement that they "believe in Christ" and have "accepted him as their savior." Then they go about getting converts closing the door to the kingdom of heaven or God to themselves and others. This is the most dangerous doctrine I have heard of in a long time and I will fight it everywhere it appears from now on for your sake and the sake of others you are harming.
Let me set you straight on this, brother. I grew up in the orthodox tradition and was a member of three different orthodox denominations, one of which you belong to, before I came to believe as I do now. I therefore approached what I now preach with great skepticism, because it was different from what I had been taught and believed all my life. This fact gives you no authority or special insight or revelation that is untouchable by the word of Christ Jesus and the apostles. You know that I am right and have rightly divided you. You know you have not been born again and that you were attracted to this doctrine to escape the fact that you have never been born again. I feel sorry for you that you are working so hard to avoid the kingdom of Heaven and God. I ask you what Jesus asked Paul: Is it hard to kick against the pricks? Christ knew it was hard to kick against the pricks. And Paul knew what Jesus was talking about. Paul was really hurting himself by hurting others who had something special that he did not after many years of hard work and study. But Christ knew Paul's heart and that it was in pain. Jesus saved him in a mighty way but he saved Paul with the same gospel that he saves all others. Christ finally revealed himself to Paul. Christ revealed that Paul as well as all others no longer need to conform to the law to be forgiven and be translated into the Kingdom of God. So I say to you again quit this false doctrine and die with Christ and be resurrected with him and ascend with him to sit down in the Heavenly places and you will be at ease and know that I am right. You know how hard Saul worked to hurt the Christians. Don't be like that by trying to divide the church in two. Just confess that you lack something that others have. And then ask Jesus for the same thing and he will give it to you.
Do you use the same arrogant, condescending language with your congregation that you use in your anwsers to me? That question is not for me.
BEB: Jesus revealed the truth of the Gospel and commanded his disciples to preach it to all nations:
Jesus revealed truths and mysteries concerning "the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 4:23) to his disciples, not Paul's mystery. See above. Mike, Mike, Mike come on man! Really! Christ is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven and the Resurrection. Paul has no mystery outside the body and Kingdom of God in Christ. Did Paul die for you? Then why are you looking to Paul for salvation? Why are you wanting us all to look to Paul for salvation rather than Jesus? I say again that I have rightly divided you! You are not born again and you know it and you are trying to hide that from all by claiming it is not for us but for the Jews only so you don't have to have it. This is the most dangerous heresy I know of working today because it closes the door to heaven that no man can shut. And I will not let you shut it on anyone in this forum.
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47.
So the basis upon which this argument is built (that there are two different gospels)
completely falls to the ground. God became man and revealed the truth of the Gospel.
The rulers, both Jews and Romans authorities, rejected him.
Believers, both Jews and Gentiles, received him.
There is no contradiction here, and no basis to conclude that the gospel preached by Jesus to the Jews and the one preached by Paul to the gentiles
was any different. There is only one gospel for the salvation of all the nations. Right on Benjamin!
One Shepherd and one flock (John
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:16One Gospel for the whole world:
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;The gospel for all Nations:
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:The whole argument of the article is based upon invalid presuppositions.
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: Matthew 25:31-32.
(i.e. that the scope of Jesus message was not universal.
But Jesus message, as seen above, is clearly universal)
The argument assumes what needs to be proved.
It interprets passages out of context,
and ignores what Scripture clearly teaches about this subject in other passages.
BEB: The orthodox position is the right one. That is why it is called orthodox,
and that is why all Christians have believed it from apostolic times.
This statement is so unintelligent it doesn't even warrant an answer. OK, it was a circular argument that you use continually but Benjamin was correct anyway.
On Lord, One Baptism, One Faith...
The first right thing you've said here. And where in Scripture does this phrase come from? Paul's mystery! Paul's mystery came from Christ and was revealed to all the apostles. And I still want to know your answers to my questions of what I need to either add or subtract from what I have received as a misinformed "one gospel" idiot having built my house on the one foundation that was really meant for the Jews instead of a Gentile. I want to know what it is that you enjoy as a "dual gospel" Christian having built his house on the foundation for Gentiles only revealed and preached by Paul alone. I challenged you to show this in another email and there is no way you can answer that question in or out of scripture.
Mike
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